Washingtons Axe or the Theseus’ Paradox

kevflight

New member
Hi Guys

BUT BEFORE I START PLEASEE LET ME SAY WITH HONESTY AND SINCERITY!!!!!

I DO NOT MEAN TO INSULT ANY PERSON INVOLVED IN THIS RESTORATION, LEAST OF ALL COLIN GIN AND THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE.
THE WORK CARRIED OUT BY COLIN IS FIRST CLASS AND HE IS OBVIOUSLY A MASTER CRAFTSMAN, AND THE OWNER WAYNE WHO IS CLEARLY DEDICATED TO HIS PROJECT GIVEN THE OBVIOUS COST INVESTED AND LOVE OF HIS CAR.

http://www.lotuscortina.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5033&start=0

I thought I would Create a discussion again! about originality as given the amount of replacement components going in to this project does beg the question of Originality, a complete front end including both front chassis legs, floor panels both sides, out riggers, complete rear chassis leg's, rear Quarters, boot floor panels, wheel tubes, wheel wells in boot, aposts, sills inner and outer, and more to come i'm sure like suspension, engine components, gearbox, and axle components. I for one would rather see this car back on the road given what it is going through than scrapped.

So What makes an original car?? the old Washingtons Axe and Theseus ship Paradox. no doubt this will stir some emotions again but conversation is good for us all see below.

Regards
Kev

George Washington’s Axe

December 18th, 2008 by Thomas


“This is George Washington’s axe,â€
 
I kind of take the Heraclitus arguement (I did google it).
If we compare a old car with a river..We still look at a river as being 'original' despite the water in it is changing all the time this can be related to a car in terms of the petrol/oil/tyres/bodypanels/mechanics change over the life of the car.
If someone takes a bucket of water from the river and creates another river I would'nt consider that river the same. In car terms I would compare that to someone creating a car from a small component of the original, like a wiper blade, tyre or logbook.
I guess I'm saying it's important to look at each case on it's own merits.
 
Hi Wayne

Please read my opening statement it was In capitals to highlight it, also my final sentence quoted again below, before asking the question about originality.

"I for one would rather see this car back on the road given what it is going through than scrapped".

I personally do not have a problem with the work you are doing, I also do not have a problem with someone using a donar shell to keep these cars on the road.

Again I apologise if I upset or offended you it was never my intention.

Regards
Kev
 
My tuppence worth.

I have owned original cars

I like the noise smell and performance and the memories my current cars give
Which are both replicas.

Originals command top dollar mine are worth a lot less.
Mine give the same experience and I can modify and dare I suggest
Improve the original and leave it next to a Chelsea tractor in tesco's
And not worry about my £40k original.

As long as there is no question of conning anyone then originality does not
Matter a toss to me.

Live and let live is the name of the game for me.

Brendan
 
As someone who made a tongue-in-cheek comment on the restoration thread and as someone with a hand in deciding the provenance of thousands of old cars perhaps I should say something. It is a topic which affects all old cars and their respective clubs and owners and I could talk for hours on the subject so please forgive the lengthy post, which is not new thinking because I have posted similar on many web sites over a good number of years.

Those who compete will know that a total replica is acceptable for national/international historic competition provided it is built to original specification. The FIA issue Historic Technical Passports (HTP) to such cars and there are national equivalents issued by the MSA. A car does not need a continuous history to qualify.

In addition, the FIA has issued Heritage Certificates (HC) which confirm a car's provenance. A car with a continuous history may well qualify even if it has been re-shelled. Cars which are built up from period or re-manufactured parts will not get HC recognition.

DVLA simply do not understand the vagaries of keeping old cars on the road, continuous history and the like and they rely on input from reputable cars clubs when considering claims on original numbers or period numbers.

What is important is the integrity of the car's history. All cars are susceptible to slowly becoming ugly, inefficient and perhaps even dangerous. What about the slowly rotting shell? What about the pressed steel suspension components? What about the seat belt mounting plates, quietly rotting away? And it’s not just the steel components. What about the worn-out shock absorbers, sagging springs and ‘bushed’ bushes? What about the dodgy electrical components tired of a poor earth and years of use and neglect? All of these things, if we do not keep on top of them, conspire to make our lovely car a sad wreck and a poor example of the fine beast which left the factory all those years ago.

It seems to me that we have two choices. We either repair or change these components as and when necessary, or we allow the car to deteriorate to the point where it is good only for a complete rebuild, the breakers yard and/or for sale as parts. As far as I am concerned the latter choice is unacceptable and one which must be avoided. So, on the grounds that the preferred option is always to keep the car in good condition, it is now a question of what we replace those parts with. The genuine factory component must be the preferred choice. If so, we may be able to claim that we have kept the car ‘original’. It’s a small step, however, from the factory fitted mild steel exhaust to the stainless competition variety – is this still an original car? How far can we go before we have a modified car? Does it matter if we paint the car a different colour, particularly if that colour was not an option from the factory? The endless list of factory options is a part of the problem. Who can say what is an original car? And why should ‘natural development’ detract from the car’s provenance? Racing cars are a good illustration. Peter Warr (I was lucky enough to have dinner with him a few years ago) told me that during his many years running Team Lotus that he considers it extremely unlikely that any Lotus F1 car ever competed in the same configuration twice. One thing is for sure: if, say, a Jim Clark Lotus Cortina came onto the market its provenance, and bear in mind here that it may not have a single component left over from the original build, would be decided not on its configuration at the time of sale but on its racing history. So what about road cars?

Natural development is just as much the right of a road car as it is a racing car. It is the owner’s choice at the time that decides the route taken. Not everyone may approve of his choice but whatever he did or does, the change is now part of that car’s history. A change of exhaust may not be seen as a significant change to the car but re-sheling with a 'copy' shell certainly will be. Thi car in question here is not quite a re-shell but it’s not far off. The question is, does it matter? Well, of course it does, but why?

Well, first of all it’s important to the owner because it was his choice for his car. Secondly it will matter to any prospective purchaser of the car for he will want to know exactly what it is he is buying. It is not a question of whether changing a car’s configuration or major components is right or wrong, it is more a question of whether the result is good or bad. It is a matter of history, and history matters.

No doubt there are many of you who would never buy anything other than an ‘original’ car with only the correct parts (and good luck for I don't think you'll find one!). And no doubt there are many of you who would much rather have a recent replica or some other exciting development of the theme. Whatever your views, be proud of your car and its history. Only do things to it which are good and either maintain its originality or improve it in some way. Most importantly keep good records for knowing ‘what’ a car is can be much more enjoyable if you know ‘how’ it got to be like it.

Let’s keep them on the road, keep them good and keep detailed records. With a full history, everything can be ‘original’ and for all the right reasons even if it is different to the car which rolled out of the factory. If you don’t need to hide or cheat on provenance then the car is a good one.

When cheating on the provenance of car is used to make money then THAT is totally wrong and must be stamped out.

Continuous History is what matters. This car will have continuous history.

Mike S
 
Hi Mike

A very interesting post with some very good points.

So if I understand the theme here it is equally as good to replace every component on a car as has virtually happening with Wayne's car, as it is to reshell a rotten mk2 Cortina Lotus with a good mk2 GT donar shell as long as evidence and history of what has been done is kept?

So i suppose the only thing to answer is how about the worth of each car?

1) Is the car having all its components replaced one by one, till there is virtually none of the original parts left even, if the replacements are NOS or pattern parts as per express panels ETC, as in this point in time some parts in particular are not available, so only pattern or second hand like quarters or roof panels are available. Is this car still worth the same and be classed as an original?

2) The mk2 Cortina Lotus re shelled with a perfectly good Mk2 GT shell that still has all the original panels and factory welds, is this car still worth the same as the original lotus? As we all know the two shells if series for series is the same.

Above naturally assumes the same history records have been kept, and the work on both vehicles is first class!! And the above post also says road cars deserve the same view as a race car, otherwise the ex race car becomes worth more than the road car for the sake and example of the reshell.

I do of course understand that a race car raced by Jim Clark may be worth more than a road car owned by Mr Smith say, with exactly the same treatment ie reshelled, simply because of its race history. Just as two race cars may have a different value if one was raced successfully by Jim Clark or one raced by some virtually unknown and unsuccessful racer.

Regards
Kev
 
As far as value, I'd personally take each car on it's own merits.
There is also a grey area between point 1 and 2, what if someone reshelled a rotten LC with a good GT shell and then went to the trouble of 'duplicating' all the LC differences?
 
Hi Lashman

I take your point but, as we know the mk2 series to series, ie series 1 to series 1 (we know series 1 to series 2 had more differences) as they where standard production models unlike the mk1 and had nowhere the differences the mk1 had.

Also if a mk2 series to series gt shell was used and then small mods carried out, any mods done would be much less than in Wayne's car as not much of the original car will be left.

Not being critical Wayne just making the point.

Regards
Kev
 
In my opinion it's the bodyshell that carries the v.i.n. and it isn't on any other part of a mk1/mk2 cortina, so the v.i.n. should stay with the bodyshell. Therefore if you build the components of your lotus cortina into a GT shell, it should have to still carry the original GT cars v.i.n. and therefore identity.
If you repair your existing bodyshell, no matter how extensively, or use a brand new bodyshell, (as happened back in the day when ford or lotus reshelled competition cars) this conflict of a car with two identities and use of the one that makes it worth more, is not an issue.
As far as the dvla rules state, a extensively repaired bodyshell is ok to carry a cars original i.d. no matter how many panels are replaced and a secondhand bodyshell that already had an i.d. is not, BUT this is unenforceable, as we all know that any old cortina that 's had it's strut tops repaired won't have a v.i.n. on it.
I don't actually have a problem with people building replicas or reshells for their own use and enjoyment, but even if the original builder is honest when selling such a car on, I am sure after a couple of changes of hands "originality would set in". This does bother me, but I don't see any way around it. You can't stop the questionable cars being built and neither can you stop them "developing originality". It all comes back to buyer beware, as even with "continuous history" on your lotus, since it became a desirable classic sometime in the late 1980s, who is to say what happened to it when it was worthless and run on a shoestring, back in the mid 1970s. When I traced the history on my own car I was able to find out plenty from new to about 1981 and from early 1990s on, but that period in between I have very little. Comes down to buying what you can see and trusting your own (or invited experts) judgement.
In the mk1/mk2 escort world nobody seems to see this reshelling/replica building as a problem and there are "new" twin cams, RS1600s and RS1800s appearing every year and being accepted as genuine, winning Ford concourse events etc. That's why an old log book for these escorts changes hands for ££££. Right or wrong that's what's happening.
Sorry if this was a bit of a ramble.
Tommy
 
Hi Tommy

All opinions welcome. As for the ref to DVLA as you can see we have a different approach to the traditional one you put forward from Mike S and his post and the FIA rules on provenance. My only problem with the DVLA one is that their guidelines are to try to stop ringing of cars, however this is not what we are talking about with the subject of using a good shell as a donar of parts, as it is in this sence just a collection of donar parts to save a car of more interest not just a monetary sum. At the end of the day if the donar car was taken apart put back together then as the Lotus nobody would have an issue but what a waste of time and money.

Also as you say the escort world seems to be viewing these issues in a totally different light. A reshell into a good standard mk1 escort shell of the models you say ie RS1600, RS1800 RS2000 and Eacort Twincams, modified to a GP4 shell mater not one jot and command prices in quite a number of instances north of mk1 Lotus Cortina's price.

DVLA, FIA, Lotus Cortina Register, Escort RS club etc can't all be right with the differing views held on the subject of originality and provenance, so I suppose it still leaves a very uncertain answer to this thorny issue.

Regards
Kev
 
Were you wearing walking boots for that ramble Tommy?
:D

I shall put mine on now.........


Even with Proper versions grey areas exist with repurcussions.

At the age of 19 I bought my first Lotus cortina mk1 a 65 airflow.

My steel doors were rotten at the bottom. A phone call to an owner in Croydon, and for £50 I swopped my green white and green doors for his black aluminium doors, swopped in the road outside me mum's house.

About 8 months later I wne to the midlands and saw a mk1 that has been converted into a mk1 savage I took the Aluminium boot off that and swopped for my steel one and £25, hell of a job to fit it as subsequently realised the hinges were different.

Finally around 1980 I heard of a written off car in Gravesned when inspected it was a heavy front impact so required that sorting out but if done it was a better car than mine which was pretty rusty and a patchwork quilt of genuine lotus parts and car.

So I bought the car as it was cheaper than going to a ford main dealer and made one good car, had some good spares and the crap car went to the breakers with the paperwork and I suspect destroyed as it was just nother £50 shell with all the good stuff gone. All done at the age of 21 as a student with no money and less sense. Car worth £500 difficult to get parts for and motivation was keeping a car I loved going on a very limited budget. :o

No problem there then.......... :?:

but when I last saw the membership in QB magazine some years ago, both cars are showing on the register! :shock:

So one is a collection of 2-3 cars and one is either a re-shell or bits in a 1500 two door donor shell.

I think you need to consider not only what is being done now by genuine club members but also have some sympathy for cars kept running before the values got silly. Such owners should not be penalised now for history carried out before such activities might now be seen to have monetary gain as an alleged motive when at the time it was a case of keeping a cheap daily driver going?
 
Hi Brendan

Another very interesting and realistic perfect example of history getting lost in time, and take on the subject.
it would be interesting to know how your ex cars were valued when last purchased, and with you comments, how they would be valued now, as with current LCR thinking, if they were valued as originals then, they can't be now with this knowledge.
Regards
Kev
 
As I see it Kev it doesn't really matter what each of our opinions on this issue is, as all these things are happening like it or not. It is up to the individual how honest he wants to be when selling and what he is happy to shell his money out for, when buying. All comes back to buyer beware again.
Another question is, seeing how easy it is to completely remove the i.d. from an old ford shell, how do you know for certain, that any bodyshell you buy, or bodyshell of a reshelled car, for that matter, isn't stolen.
A friend of mine bought a really good shell for a mk2 escort without any i.d. but that had an RS1800 v.i.n. stamped on the inner wing (obviously not stamped by the factory). He checked with the owners club and the v.i.n was for a known car, still in existance, never worked out what was going on there.
All sorts go on behind closed garage doors.
Tommy
P.S. No Brendan, I am wearing me trainers :wink:
 
It can all turn into a minefield for old competition cars too. I know a man who bought the bodyshell of the 1977 East African Safari winning Escort, as it had been reshelled for Ford, after Tiff rolled it making Top Gear, but the original shell was repaired rather than destroyed. The buyer of this bodyshell built a showcar using all period correct parts and then sent for a V5, using the i.d. of the original car. Result 2 cars with 1 i.d. and the owner of the reshelled car getting police involved and it going to court. Result was that under dvla rules neither car contained enough of the original to retain the i.d. so nobody won.
Similarly, I know that the 1972 R.A,C. winning RS1600 went through a 2 cars 1 i.d. situation, until one of the owners bought the other out, to make 1 car with 1 i.d.
Tommy
 
Hi Tommy

Interesting two stories and the first one is why most manufacturers these days demand either a big surcharge for the old shell so it gets returned and destroyed by them as BMW do or a destruction certificate for the old shell to credit the surcharge.

The 72 example, I wonder when the owner of one car bought the other which one did he keep as the original one the repaired shell or the reshelled car?

Regards
Kev
 
If I'm honest and without wishing to offend anyone, this topic has been done to death so many times in the past and there will always be huge differences of opinion on the rights and wrongs of restoration, reshells etc.

As far as Wayne's car goes, fair enough it may have had a significant amount of the original shell renewed but most importantly it's still got it's original shell and in my opinion it's still a Lotus Cortina rather than a replica. Whether replacing most of the shell makes a car as desirable as one that has retained most of it's original shell is another matter altogether. You could argue I guess that this car will probably be stronger than a car that has had a light restoration, while there will always be individuals who would prefer to own a car that has retained most of it's original structure. You pay your money and take your choice.

The easy option in this case would have been to use a sound two door shell and convert it but Wayne and Colin have clearly seen that it's much better to repair the original shell to retain the car's original identity. The other option of course would have been to scrap the car and we all know that would have been completely unacceptable given the rarity and historical importance of the Lotus Cortina.

Simon
 
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